1985 par Mark Millar

Voici l'un des défis de chronologie les plus difficiles que j'ai jamais eu à relever.

Dans la série 1985 de Mark Millar, des super-vilains envahissent une Terre parallèle sans super-héros jusqu'à ce qu'un garçon aille chercher l'aide des super-héros sur la Terre-Marvel.

La série commence avec un garçon, Toby, qui lit Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars 10 publié le 23 octobre 1984 avec une date de Février 1985.

Il rencontre un Hulk intelligent. Mais l'épisode 296 de Hulk (publié le 13 mars 1984 sous une date de juin) est le dernier où il est intelligent. L'épisode 297 voit un affrontement mental entre le Hulk sauvage et le Hulk intelligent et à partir du 298, Hulk est sauvage et ne parle même plus. A la fin du 300 (publié le 10 juillet 1984 sous une couverture d'octobre) il est exilé de la Terre.

Il y a aussi le cas du Red Skull qui affronte Captain America du 293 (May 84) au 300 (Dec 84) dans lequel il meurt.

L'apparition de ces deux personnages placerait la série entière (ou en tout cas les épisodes 1 et 2 dans lesquels ils apparaissent) en 1984 plutôt qu'en 1985.

Cependant, lorsque les héros arrivent au numéro 5, la Chose fait partie des Fantastiques. Or il n'était pas retourné sur Terre à la fin des Guerres secrètes et n'y revient que dans FF 277 (Apr 85). Il faut donc que les épisodes 5 et 6 de la série 1985 se produisent en 1985 après son retour sur Terre. Et comme la Chose quitte les Fantastiques lorsqu'il découvre que sa petite amie Alicia Masters est en couple avec Johnny Storm, la série 1985 doit se produire avant Thing 23 (May 85). Or l'épisode 277 a lieu en même temps que ROM 65 qui implique de très nombreux super-héros.

Plusieurs personnages ont une chronologie qui pose problème: Doctor Doom, Red Skull, Ultron, Thing, Morbius, Giant-Man.

Lorsque Jim Shooter utilise le Dr Doom dans Secret Wars il ne tient pas compte de ce que John Byrne avait fait avec le personnage. Dans FF 260 son corps avait été anéanti. L'intention de Byrne était que Doom transfère son esprit dans le corps d'un témoin de la scène mais Shooter nous présente Doom dans son corps d'origine. Ainsi il appartient à Byrne de fournir une explication et lorsque Doom apparait dans FF 287-288, il n'a jamais entendu parler des Guerres secrètes. Le Beyonder sert de Deus ex machina pour recréer le corps du Dr Doom, transférer son esprit dans ce corps et le renvoyer dans le passé pour y vivre les Guerres secrètes.

Quant à Ultron, il est resté sur la planète des Guerres secrètes où il finira par rencontrer la Chose dans les épisodes Thing 21-22 et c'est Grimm qui reviendra sur Terre avec sa tête dans FF 277.

Morbius est mentionné dans l'épisode 4 de 1985. "Sauron pecked the eyeballs from the bodies that Michael Morbius had left behind." Morbius n'apparait pas et qui plus est, il n'est pas un vampite dans les années 80. Il a été guéri dans Peter Parker Spectacular Spider-Man 38 (Jan 1980) et ne redevient un vampire dans Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme 10 (Mid-Nov 1989). D'autre part quand on lit l'épisode on ne voit guère comment le narrateur aurait pu être témoin de ce qu'il décrit. Du coup je me suis dit qu'il se peut qu'il ait vu un autre personnage et l'ait confondu avec Morbius. Ainsi on sait grâce à l'épisode 6 que le Hobgoblin est présent avec les autres super-vilains. Son visage blafard, ses yeux rouges et ses couleurs bleu-orange sont assez proches de l'apparence de Morbius.

En 1985 Henry Pym n'avait plus d'identité costumée mais il a pu faire une exception en raison de la menace. Il apparaitrait entre Captain America  301 et Iron Man 194.

La présence du Red Skull dans les épisodes 1 et 6 de la série 1985 est gênante car il meurt en 1984. Lorsque Captain America revient des Guerres secrètes il se retrouve impliqué dans des manigances du Crâne rouge qui s'achèveront par un affrontement final au cours duquel l'ennemi de Captain America mourra (CA 293-300). Le corps sans vie apparait dans le numéro 301. On n'apprendra bien plus tard (CA 350) comment son esprit a été transféré dans un corps cloné. Si l'épisode 1 de 1985 a lieu peu après les Guerres secrètes (Hulk est encore intelligent), c'est que Red Skull y apparait avant CA 293. Par contre son apparition dans l'épisode 6 doit se produire après sa "résurrection". Il faut donc que CA 293-300 se produise entre 1985 #1 et #6.

Fort heureusement il existe une ellipse temporelle de plusieurs semaines ou plusieurs mois entre les pages 11 et 17 du 2e épisode de 1985, ce qui justifie de passer de 1984 à 1985.

Colossus apparait bizarrement dans son ancien costume (celui qui a été remplacé à la fin des Guerres secrètes). Il porte aussi cet ancien costume dans Rom 65 alors que dans Rom 66, il porte le nouveau !

La prise en compte de tous ces éléments permet de construire la chronologie suivante:

La parution des Guerres secrètes permet à Wyncham d'attirer sur sa Terre parallèle les personnages suivants: Dr Doom, Vulture, Red Skull, Mole Man.

Hulk revient des Guerres secrètes blessé à la jambe, (Hulk 295, pages 1 à 11, aide Reed Richards pour l'accouchement de Sue, FF 266-268), commence à régresser et guérit (pages restantes de Hulk 295 et Hulk 296), part vers l'Ouest des États-Unis, est téléporté depuis l'Arizona alors qu'il se battait contre le Juggernaut (1985 1 et 2). Régresse définitivement et est banni dans une autre dimension (Hulk 297-312).

Le Red Skull mourant retourne sur Terre exécuter son plan contre Captain America (CA 293-301).

Des semaines ou des mois s'écoulent pendant lesquels Wyncham constitue une armée de super-vilains.

Les Dire Wraiths lancent leur attaque finale (Rom 64) avec une éclipse de soleil. La Chose revient sur Terre avec la tête d'Ultron, découvre la relation d'Alicia avec Johnny, puis constate l'éclipse. De nombreux héros viennent contrer l'armée des Dire Wraiths dans l'Ouest (Rom 65). Colossus porte son ancien costume. Les héros remportent la victoire, fin de l'éclipse. Pendant ce temps, Dr Strange sauve Reed et Sue Richards d'une sorcière et de Méphisto. 

Toby Goodman arrive sur la Terre-Marvel qu'il trouve lumineuse pour chercher de l'aide (1985 5), les Fantastiques ne sont pas disponibles (FF 276-277), ni les Vengeurs (Rom 65). Spider-Man est à New York, il porte son costume noir et ses cartouches de fluide, son costume n'est donc pas le symbiote. Les héros sont contactés et certains interviennent sur la Terre de Toby (1985 5 et 6). Colossus porte toujours son ancien costume, Cyclope et Tornade arrivent en renfort. Les héros rapatrient les super-vilains sur leur Terre (1985 6). 

Certains héros retournent sur les lieux de la défaite des Dire Wraiths, Rom les bannit et quitte la Terre (Rom 66). La Chose apprend que Rom a quitté la Terre (FF 277 trois dernières pages). Dazzler 38 Cyclope est avec les X-Men.

Chronologie de Conan dans une histoire de King Size Conan: Marvel/Dark Horse, Roy Thomas & De Camp/Kurt Busiek

 Lorsque Robert E. Howard crée le personnage de Conan en retravaillant un manuscrit qui mettait en scène le roi Kull, il imagine qu'il évoluera dans un monde où cohabitent des pays inspirés à la fois de l'Antiquité et du Moyen-Age. Il écrira des aventures de son personnage à plusieurs époques de sa vie mais ne donnera jamais de chronologie. Ce travail sera fait par P. Schuyler Miller and John D. Clark qui le lui enverront. Il y apportera quelques corrections. La chronologie sera mise à jour plusieurs fois avec L. Sprague de Camp. 

Cette chronologie n'est pas exempte de critiques. William Galen Gray, Joe Marek et Dale Rippke en ont proposé d'autres. Celle de Dale Rippke a servi de base aux séries Conan, lancées par Kurt Busiek, publiées par Dark Horse.

 Pour De Camp l'ordre est Tower of the Elephant, Hall of the Dead, God in the Bowl, Rogues in the House.

Marvel les a adaptées dans cet ordre:  Tower of the Elephant, God in the Bowl, Hall of the Dead, Rogues in the House.

Pour Dale Rippke, Dark Horse et Kurt Busiek:  God in the Bowl, Tower of the Elephant, Hall of the Dead, Rogues in the House.

Lorsque Marvel récupère les droits d'adaptation, il célèbrele personnage dans King Size Conan avec plusieurs histoires dont une par Busiek.

Busiek déclare que son histoire s'intègre aussi bien à la chronologie de Marvel que celle de Dark Horse.

"I kind of tried to write a story that would fit into Marvel’s Conan continuity, but would also fit in among the Conan stories I did at Dark Horse… and I wanted to build it off of something in a Robert E. Howard story," he tells SYFY WIRE. "I think I managed all three, so I’m eager to see what readers think."

Sauf qu'il se trompe. Dans son histoire Conan se souvient de son aventure "God in the Bowl" (adaptée dans Conan the Barbarian 7) et remarque la tour de l'éléphant (détruite à la fin de l'adaptation dans Conan the Barbarian 4). Confronté à cette erreur, Busiek répond: 

"If there’s a way issue 7 can happen before issue 4, as it should, since “The God in the Bowl” pretty much has to take place before “The Tower of the Elephant,” that’s your answer."

Hélas, sa proposition n'est pas possible, COB 7 mentionne COB 4 directement en citant le nom de Yag-Kosha, l'homme éléphant.

Y avait-il un moyen d'intégrer cette histoire à la chronologie Marvel ? Comment Conan pouvait-il se souvenir d'une aventure qu'il n'avait pas encore vécue ? J'ai donc relu les aventures de Conan publiées par Marvel et dès le numéro 1, Conan a des visions de son avenir. C'était ma solution ! Il n'avait pas encore vécu cette aventure mais en avait eu des visions puis après avoir passé la nuit dans des tavernes (selon l'histoire de Busiek) il en a eu un flashback. Ensuite il décide de pénétrer dans la Tour de l'Eléphant où il rencontre Yag-Kosha qui a des pouvoirs télépathiques, Conan abrège ses souffrances à sa demande et Yag-Kosha le récompense en effaçant de sa mémoire les visions de son avenir de sorte que Conan n'a plus se souvenir quand il rencontre pour de bon le dieu-serpent dans COB 7.

"In COB 1 Conan sees glimpses of his past and then his future. So, let's figure he did see the upcoming events of COB 7 during COB 1 (between Venarium and being crowned as king, respectively panels 5 & 6 page 14 if you count the story as having 19 pages) and was left with the impression he lived through them. Or at least when he stayed in the city of Numalia he had first seen in the flashforward, he got that déjà vu impression. (Too many drunken bouts to remember what was real and what was not, in KSCO /2 he says he spent the night in taverns). In COB 4 Yag-Kosha fixes Conan's mind in order to make him forget his future so he does not get a déjà vu feeling. (This Roy Thomas addition of Conan seeing himself as a future king departs from Howard's characterization and is not referred to again.)"

"COB 1 (glimpses of his future life, including COB 7) > ... (heavy drinking) > KSCO /2 ("remembers" son of Set) > COB 4 (helps free Yag-Kosha, who fixes his memory, removing knowledge of the future) > ... > COB 7 (first meets a son of Set)"

 

Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

 Gerry Duggan a écrit un long flashback des les épisodes 2 et 3. On y voit les activités d'Emma Frost au service du Kingpin dans les années 80: alcooliser Tony Stark, influencer l'avocate Jennifer Walters, influencer Nick Fury pour qu'il ferme les yeux lors des événements de DD 232. Elektra, en costume rouge, est l'assassin du Kingpin et Spider-Man porte son costume noir. Et là quelque chose ne colle pas. Elektra se met au service du Kingpin dans DD 174 (novembre 1981) meurt dans DD 181 (avril 1982), ressuscite dans le 190 (janvier 1983) après avoir été purgée de ses crimes, et s'habille en blanc avant de rejoindre la secte Les Chastes à laquelle appartenait Stick, mentor de Matt Murdock. Spider-Man n'apparait avec son costume noir que dans ASM 252 (mai 1984). Spider-Man portera un costume noir jusqu'au numéro 300 (mai 1988).

 Donc ou bien il faut trouver une solution pour que Spider-Man porte un costume noir dans la période novembre 1981-avril 1982, ou bien Elektra travaille pour le Kingpin entre mai 1984 et mai 1988.

J'ai exploré les deux pistes.

 Dans ASM 225-226, février-mars 1982, Spider-Man se bat contre un justicier habillé de noir et le place dans un asile après lui avoir enlevé son costume noir. Il avait donc un costume noir à sa disposition mais ce n'est pas vraiment celui que l'on voit dessiné. 

Pour la période 1984-1988, je me suis demandé si un personnage pouvait se faire passer pour Elektra, par exemple Typhoid Mary qui apparait en mai 1988 ou Erynys, une Elektra maléfique qui apparait lors du retour d'Elektra dans DD 322-325.  J'ai partagé cette hypothèse sur le Marvel Chronology Project.

"Elektra is cleaned in DD 190 (Jan 83), dresses in white, joins the Chaste, shaves her head and only gets corrupted again in Fall from Grace (1993) when she reintegrates the part of her essence that had been left in Garrett. Could the scenes of Erynys getting that part of Elektra's essence in Fall From Grace be interpreted as flashbacks so that the Elektra seen by Emma and the little girl are is actually Erynys? Emma would see "her" with her mind and that would translate as "Elektra."

"I've also considered Typhoid Mary impersonating Elektra with Kingpin's approval. Spider-Man ditches the black costume in ASM 300 (May 88) and Typhoid Mary starts working for the Kinpin in DD 254 (May 88) so there is a small window where the Kingpin could trap Emma Frost with a fake story of "Elektra" needing a witness removed. Spider-Man just before ASM 300, Typhoid Mary just after DD 254."

J'ai dû répondre à des objections, notamment que les personnages devrait manifester de la surprise de voir Elektra en vie si je plaçais la séquence après DD 182 (son enterrement).

"For Elektra, whatever we try to come up with that involves a black costumed Spider-Man--real Elektra, Erynye, Typhoid Mary--it's going to clash with a supposedly dead Elektra. BUT in DD 190 the Hand tries to steal the corpse of Elektra to resurrect her. Given their ability to resurrect their warriors, an Elektra active in the mid-80s as an assassin would hardly be so surprising. "Oh yeah, it's the Hand, they resurrected her. They do that all the time."

"(Note also she does not leave any witness alive in that story so it matters little whether people think she's dead if there's nobody left to be surprised by her presence.)

"The most unlikely option is that it's the real Elektra since she's supposed to be sinless and living with the Chaste.

"I've not done a close reading of Fall From Grace to check if Erynye's origin can actually take place several years earlier in Marvel's continuity. On one hand it raises the question of why would they lend their fake Elektra to Kingpin? On the other hand, if the Hand lent a fake Elektra to Kingpin people would be convinced that's the real Elektra. It leaves open the matter of choosing a time from 1984 to 1988 to place the story.

"I slightly prefer my Typhoid Mary solution. It slightly reinterprets Duggan's story. Rather than the real Elektra--since that cannot be her--seeking help from Emma, that's actually a plot from the Kingpin to involve Emma in the suspicious disappearance of a child. It is established that Typhoid Mary works for Kingpin and that he wants her to mess with Daredevil. Let's say he first planned of Mary impersonating Elektra and then thought that wouldn't work as DD would see through it and then shifted to "Have him fall in love with you as you are and then break his heart". Another advantage is that it pinpoints Spider-Man's placement: in May 1988.

"I suggested the problem and my solution to Duggan on Twitter, he just made a joke. Probably I should reach the editor.

"Of course we can just dismiss the black costume but on what basis?"  

Constatant les éléments qui plaçait la séquence au milieu des années 80, je me suis rendu compte que le scénariste avait par erreur placé Elektra: Assassin 1-8 à cette époque alors que c'était censé êetre une aventure passée d'Elektra, avant son apparition dans Daredevil 168.

"I think I figured what happened in the writer's mind. Fall from Grace (1992) refers to Elektra: Assassin (1985-86). Duggan (born 1973) when reading those stories as a child might have believed Elektra: Assassin took place between DD 190 and 323, at the same time that Spidey had a black costume (1984-88). Or, less probably, he first read the Elektra stories in Elektra Saga 1-4 (Feb-May 1984) and thought this mini-series contemporary with 1984 issues (ASM 252, May 1984 is the first appearance of the black costume) rather than a reprint.

"Not that it helps us in any way but it points to when Duggan thought it was taking place. Invisible Woman is also depicted in her negative costume (est. 1983)."

"There are fair objections to replacing Elektra with someone else. But I already covered some of those.

"1. When you introduce the "misremembering" gambit, that can also work for the elements that allow one to say "this is really Elektra."

"2. If the precedent is Uncanny X-Men Annual 2 with Selene/Tessa, that's also a case of wrong character because of the time frame involved.

"3. The "What aren't you dead?" I have already explained. The Hand was already about to resurrect Elektra like they do all their members.

"4. And Emma and Elektra didn't know each other anyway. We have no background that would even establish that Emma knew who Elektra was or that she would know an Elektra had died.

"(Note on semantics: Elektra is supposed to be alive after DD 190. She's just believed to be dead by Kingpin, Bullseye, Murdock and associates. Outside those circles who knew Elektra?)

"5. And the matter of a believed-to-be-dead person going around when there are never any witness to wonder about it is rather moot.

"Unless we have another story where Elektra refers to that shared history we are free to reinterpret

"Now, the third issue shows Elektra "wanting forgiveness" training the girl in martial arts. This is at odds with the ruthless killer from the previous issue. This also refutes the Typhoid as Elektra hypothesis. Emma states that the Genosha genocide (2001) is what prevented her from bringing Isabelle home.

"This leaves the following scenario if, like me, you don't want to dismiss Spidey's black costume on Emma's "bad memory":
Elektra leaves part of her essence in Garrett (Elektra: Assassin 8) > Elektra dies (DD 181) > The Hand tries to revive Elektra, DD cleans her soul, she's resurrected by Stone and joins the Chaste in a white costume (DD 190) > Erynys gets the Elektra essence from Garrett (DD 323) > she acts as assassin for Kingpin leaving no witnesses and involves Emma Frost into disappearing Isabelle to set her up (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2) > Elektra in white costume recovers her essence (and some related memories) from Erynys (DD 325) > "wanting forgiveness" she tracks down Isabelle and trains her (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2)"

 On m'a alors signalé que le prologue de DD 190 dans lequel Elektra escalade la falaise vers le repaire des Chastes pourrait avoir lieu bien après sa date de publication. Cela a généré plusieurs commentaires.

"Clive's objection is valid. The cleansing of Elektra occurs on the publication date of DD 190 since it's DD doing it.

"Her joining the Chaste can indeed happen anytime later like Jason proposes.

"The problem is Elektra returning to assassin work after she's been cleansed. And not just killing henchmen but witnesses. Given the number of people we see her killing, she could not be clean enough to join the Chaste later on.

"It comes down to what you're willing to squint on:

"Spidey's black costume. (Col Fury & Clive)

"Only a cleansed Elektra could join the Chaste. (Jason)

"Real Elektra in issue 2. (Leoparis)

"I thought I had a rather consensual proposal with Elektra trying to atone for the murders committed by the part of her soul in Erynys (it is Elektra in #3 but it wasn't really her in #2) but I failed to convince anyone. If nobody is willing to come to my side, I'm willing to adopt Jason's solution under the proviso that Elektra takes other unseen actions to cleanse her soul (like we see her helping Isabelle) between #2 and #3.

"(The colors used for the prologue and epilogue of DD 190 make me wonder whether the early pages were a false flashback, i.e. we are led to believe it's a flashback but the last pages reveal it's her present attempt we've seen.)"

Après quelques discussions, j'ai trouvé que c'était la meilleure solution:

"I've weighed all options equally and worked out chronology listings for each. But I won't post all that here as one option proved better than the others and that post is long enough as it is. People got confused when I put several options together and misattributed to Jason ideas that were mine. Jason never proposed to replace Elektra with someone else nor proposed to make a placement when she was dead. He has always had a strong proposal in that he maintained that Elektra was Elektra, the black costume was the black costume and it could take place at a time when Elektra was alive (after her resurrection and before joining the Chaste).

"After much reflection and close reading, I'd say Jason's version is the best one. It had a single weakness which others and I pointed, "Why would a cleansed Elektra return to assassin work? How could a cleansed Elektra manage to climb the ice wall in DD 190? How could an assassin Elektra join the Chaste?"

"Jason provided explanations, which I find satisfying, and I found another one. He first suggested to move the epilog in DD 190 later in time. Then he pointed that Kingpin uses a telepath who controls people. We even see Emma controlling Nick Fury and She-Hulk.

"The Elektra circa DD 174-181 hypothesis has implausibilities of its own.

"Elektra works as Kingpin's assassin from DD 174 to 181 (Sep 81-Apr 82), a rather short time. If Devil's Reign 1-2 features Elektra during that period, where is that summer she spends with Isabelle in England in Devil's Reign 3? Elektra going AWOL for the summer to England from her position as Kingpin's assassin and even more to live with a person targeted by the Kingpin is rather unlikely. That very move would endanger Isabelle. Unless it occured after Elektra had left the Kingpin's employ.

"And since she left it by dying, after her resurrection, it seems DD 190 would need to be broken for that hypothesis as well (i.e. the fb in #3 would occur after her resurrection). Otherwise we would need to go from 1982 issues to 1994 issues and Isabelle should have significantly aged.

"Besides, Elektra's actions in #2 are treasonous toward the Kingpin, she alerts Emma to protect a witness, then kills and maims the assassins sent after Isabelle. Spider-Man is instructed to prevent Elektra from killing them all. So we would have witnesses of Elektra's betrayal (in addition to the sai wounds that would implicate her even if, say, Emma erased the memories of those left alive).

"The elements in the flashbacks point to the mid-80s rather than the early 80s.

"The angular painted cover with Dazzler (who is not in the story) seems like an homage to mid-80s Sienkiewicz covers (who was cover artist on Dazzler from July 83-Jan 85). On the cover She-Hulk has her Avenger uniform (1982-84) rather than her ragged white clothes from her own series (Feb 1980-Feb 82).

"The next issue blurb for #2 mentions the Invisible Woman. Sue Richards only uses the name Invisible Woman from FF 284, Nov 85. She proposes using the Baxter Building as collateral but the building was destroyed in FF 278-279 and the banker shows no surprise. Fortunately Emma does not identify as "Invisible Woman" within the flashback. So the sequence with Emma as Mrs Richards must be somewhere between FF 256 (Jul 83) and 278 (May 85). The scene with She-Hulk takes place in New York so after the end of her own series (Feb 82) where she was in Los Angeles and after she joined the Avengers (from A 222, Jul 1982). The scene with Stark also probably occurs in New York at the start of O'Neil's run (Stark is tempted to drink from IM 166, Jan 1983). The Nick Fury flashback seems to take place during the latter part of Born Again (ca DD 232, Jul 86). The character of Wesley, in the Emma/Elektra fb, was created in Reborn (DD 227-233). In DD 174-190, the Kingpin's right-hand man was Flint.

"Even is these scenes are not connected to each other, they all point to the mid-80s.

"Emma says to Elektra, "I can't make your boyfriend like you" but in DD 168-190, there is no doubt that Murdock loves her. It's only once Murdock has renewed his relationship with Karen Page that Elektra comes second (cf. EL4 12).

"Russ also asked if unreliable memory was an option.

"I do not think it is.

"The flashback in #1 is not presented as a memory from any particular character. It just starts with the caption "The past" so we are in omniscient narrator mode.

"The earlier pages of #2 are presented as Emma's memories as she talks with her lawyer. But the long sequence with Elektra and Spider-Man is not part of them. It starts with a caption "Years ago, at the Hellfire Club."

"Emma also clearly sees his original costume when she looks in Peter's memory, which leaves us wondering how could she confuse his costumes at a time when he had never had the black costume yet?

"Conclusion
"There are answers to every objection leveled so far. Yes, Elektra returning as an assassin after her resurrection undoes Miller's story but Miller's story was undone in more ways than one by Fall From Grace. In DD 319, an assassin from The Hand manages to climb the ice wall. So an assassin Elektra could as well.

"It seems Murdock's "cleansing" was only removing the hate from Elektra rather than making her sinless as we supposed.

"In that view, in issue #2 Elektra and Emma have a discussion where Elektra points she is the merciful one while Emma is the cruel one. That dialog and her empathy tend to show she is not anymore the ruthless killer she was in DD 174-181.

"The sequence then goes: DD 190, Kingpin knows where the Hand is going to resurrect Elektra (page 21), Elektra's hate is cleansed by DD's actions, she's resurrected by Stone (pages 24-34). Kingpin resumes employing her, using the fact that she's believed dead. This might or not involve Emma erasing some of Elektra's memories. Elektra betrays Kingpin by going to Emma to protect Isabelle, she maims and kills the Kingpin's men (Devil's Reign: X-Men #2) and leaves his employ. She goes to England for the summer to teach martial arts to Isabelle (Devil's Reign: X-Men #3), and possibly undertakes similar actions to atone for her past. She attempts and succeeds to climb the ice wall and gets accepted by the Chaste (DD 190 Epilog, page 35-38). She returns in DD 319-321 (currently missing from her chronology) and following where she gets corrupted by the part of her essence that had been left in Garrett and gets cast out from the Chaste.

"For the other characters involved, the placement would be after Murdock is with Karen Page (due to Emma's barb) and probably before Kingpin recruits a new assassin to replace the loss of Elektra (Typhoid Mary is the one that readily comes to my mind but any other would do)."

 

"But first, credit where credit is due. I've seen people refer to this solution as mine. Jason's arguments convinced me his solution was preferrable. I had two different solutions which left Miller's stories untouched:
"1. Elektra is actually Typhoid Mary posing as Elektra in order to trap Emma into kidnapping Isabelle. Even if this version corrects the plot holes from Duggan, it became implausible with the scene in issue 3. (Not impossible as protecting women is a trait of character of Mary.)
"2. Elektra is Elektra's essence--that had been left in Garrett--transferred by the Hand into a soulless body and rechristened "Erynys". (So she is sort of Elektra, the splinter soul is seen reintegrating Elektra's body in DD 325. It requires reinterpreting the transference ceremony in Fall From Grace as flashbacks and imagining that the Hand would lend their Dark Elektra to the Kingpin. This involved more difficult assumptions than Jason's version.)

"Regarding Emma as unreliable witness and the use of UX@2 2 as precedent:
I don't think that the change from Selene to Tessa required assuming that Emma's memories were unreliable. It derived from the fact that it cannot be Selene and that Selene and Tessa are visually similar and could be readily swapped (such as changing the name in translation). The black costume, on the other hand, is visually much dissimilar to the red-and-blue costume. The flashback in Devil's Reign: X-Men #2 shows that Emma can distinguish the red-and-blue costume from the black one. I can hardly imagine that she saw the blue-and-red twice but remembers it as two costumes.

"By relying on an assumption ("Emma's history could lead to defective memories") we start from a weak foundation. We do not need to accept that assumption as changing Selene to Tessa does not entail that it was Emma's mistake either:

"The use of the name Selene can be attributed to a number of other things than Emma's supposedly confused memories, such as a stage name used by Tessa in the presence of non-members (Namor). And even if we accepted the flashbacks in UX@2 2 as Emma's memories, "Selene" can simply be attributed to a slip of the tongue and/or to the specific mind-attack in UX@2 2 scrambling that one memory rather than to an unreliable mind for which there is no evidence. There is no mind-attack shutting down Emma in Devil's Reign: X-Men.

"Conclusion: The flashbacks in UX@2 2 can remain "The past" rather than Emma's version of the past. I don't think we need to cross that line for either story.

"Chronologically there has never been anything preventing Elektra from meeting the black costumed Spider-Man. She was only dead from DD 181 (Apr 82) to 190 (Jan 83). There were only implausibilities (which I readily pointed). But Jason addressed all of those. Here they are with additions and fine-tuning on my part:

"1. The Kingpin knew where Elektra was to be resurrected (DD 190) and could make his play to recover his assassin.

"2. By moving the epilog forward in time, we explain the red costume and the fact she is not yet part of the Chaste. Epilogs taking place in some distant future are customary (and certainly more acceptable than reinterpreting sequences as flashbacks or ignoring visual details).

"3. Elektra kills in secrecy and even witnesses are to be eliminated so that her existence is kept secret (Devil's Reign: X-Men 1). Hence nobody could be surprised that she is alive. However she blows that cover by attacking the Kingpin's assassins and leaving some of them alive (Devil's Reign: X-Men 2).

"4. Emma tells Elektra she cannot make her boyfriend love her (Devil's Reign: X-Men 2) even though DD was madly in love with Elektra during Miller's run (to the point of digging her tomb, DD 182). The only time when Elektra comes second is when Matt is with Karen (from DD 232, see also EL4 12). (I know that we could reinterpret it as Emma meant a different lover or as a joke.)

"5. Elektra's inability to climb the ice wall had been attributed to her hateful disposition and Daredevil cleaned her of that (DD 190).

"6. We even have dialog with Emma that Elektra is the merciful one (Devil's Reign: X-Men 2). Not only does she act to save Isabelle, she also teaches her how to defend herself (Devil's Reign: X-Men 3). She hardly seems to be the cold assassin she was in Miller's run (DD 174-181).

"7. In Fall From Grace an assassin manages to climb the wall (DD 319), therefore being an assassin is not what prevents one to do so. So even as an assassin Elektra could climb that wall. She's also cast out from the Chaste so we have to wonder how clean she was (Fall from Grace TPB). The Chaste are also seen killing their enemies.

"8. Emma can manipulate Elektra's mind into forgetting the events of DD 181 and 190. Emma is seen manipulating She-Hulk and Fury into not remembering and looking elsewhere. (Devil's Reign: X-Men 2)

"Plus my specific answers to the latest objections:
"9. I doubt that the black costume was drawn in error. I pointed, using both intradiegetic and extradiegetic elements, that the creators probably meant for the story to take place in the mid-80s. ("Sue Richards" is seen in the post-1983 negative costume. She-Hulk is in New York. Fury is from Reborn.) I think Duggan may have had a wrong chronology of Elektra, where Elektra: Assassin takes place before Fall From Grace (which is written as a sequel). In Fall From Grace dialogue from Fury says the events from Elektra Assassin happened during the last presidential election, which could forward that false impression. We see both Spider-Man's costumes, which makes both a confusion on Emma's part and an art mistake implausible.

"10. Inserting Devil's Reign X-Men 1-3 during Miller's first run implies treasonous actions on the part of Elektra (protecting a witness and killing other assassins sent after her). And this is the other bad fit with 1981-82 stories: either Elektra suspiciously disappears to train Isabelle after Emma was seen intervening to take her away, either she leaves a means of contacting her in England that could be traced back to her and Isabelle. Imagining several such trips by Elektra to England to train Isabelle just makes it even more implausible, not less. So the events of Devil's Reign: X-Men can play as a more conclusive termination of Elektra's employ (after her resurrection) than her death.

"Other--minor--arguments (but could be a clincher):
"11. Kingpin does not have a replacement for Elektra until Typhoid Mary. This can be construed to mean he did not need one because he secretly had the original.

"12. Comics are a visual medium and we must give priority to the black costume (and other mid-80s visual elements) over the consideration that Elektra working for the Kingpin occurred at a different time. (I usually refrain using the visual medium argument as it has too often been used to ignore the text but there is no text here contradicting the image).

"There you go, I hope people keep enjoying this discussion."

Peu à peu cette hypothèse a gagné des soutiens, mais pas suffisamment.

"Discussion started before the mini-series was completed.
The obvious problem was a black-clad Spider-Man (1984-88) during the era Elektra was employed by the Kingpin (1981-82).

"Col Fury and Clive Reston argued to dismiss the black costume as an art error and to place it among DD 174-181.
"Jason Doty argued that it was the black costume and Elektra as shown.
Leocomix proposed two theories: It's another martial artist assassin impersonating Elektra (Typhoid Mary) or it's Erynye, the dark Elektra from Fall From Grace (DD 319-325).

"With the publication of issue three and its humane Elektra, my theories became less plausible.

"StrayLamb rallied to the Fury/Reston proposal.

"But Jason answered back with a fierce defense, proposing to move the Epilogue from DD 190 further into the future, arguing that Kingpin knew of the Hand's attempt to resurrect Elektra, etc.

"Abandoning my own theories, I reassessed the two remaining competing theories. I found that issue 3 also undermined the DD 174-181 hypothesis. And that even issue 2 undermined it since Elektra was overtly betraying Kingpin.

"I rallied to Jason's theory and steelmanned (strenghtened) it. I also pointed at the inherent weaknesses of the DD 174-81 hypothesis. At that point Fury/Reston/StrayLamb had argued for dismissing the black costume and Jason/Leocomix for a mid-80s placement. The ratio was 3/2.

"Then Midnighter rallied to our theory, which equaled the odds.

"Then StrayLamb stated he was now on the fence.

"I then explained that writer Gerry Duggan probably believed Elektra: Assassin took place after DD 190 based on its publication dates (Aug 86-Mar 87) and that it was thus not his intention to place his mini-series in 1981-82 as other elements pointed to the mid and late eighties.

"The black costume was made in PPTSSM 99 (Feb 1985) and worn regularly from ASM 280 to 300 (Sep 1986 - May 1988) after the red and blue was destroyed in an explosion.

"In his current Iron Man series, he's revisiting Iron Man's Silver Centurion (1986-1988) period with a fight vs. Emma Frost but this will likely not change the odds.

"So we stand at 3.5 for the later 80s placement and 2.5 for the 1981-82 placement."

 

Last Carmine Infantino work

 Carmine Infantino's last work appeared shortly before he died in BOOM Studio's Planet of the Apes.

 Daryl Gregory wrote the series from 2011 to 2013. Carlos Magno was the regular penciler for 16 issues and the Annual. After the cancellation the series was completed in three extra-length issues penciled by Diego Barreto: Planet of the Apes Special (Feb 2013), Planet of the Apes Spectacular (Jul 2013), Planet of the Apes Giant (Sep 2013).

 What is striking is that some pages were clearly laid out by Carmine Infantino. Infantino's compositions are very recognizable. Because he tends to draw symmetrical pictures, he often tilts the image right and left to break the static result. 

 Some examples on the first of these, the Special:

 On page 7 the wide panel is a hallmark of Infantino's style as are the tilted right followed by tilted left panels that follow.

The close-ups on the faces are giveaways, look at the one on the bottom of page 9.

Every panel on page 10 is typical of Infantino. 

Also the middle panel and last panel of page 11.

The fourth and fifth of page 12.

The first and last of page 13.

The faces and tilted panels of page 14.

 Typically the more distinctly Infantino pages are those where Barreto rushed the finishing/inking.  

 Other pages show Infantino's hand but have been reworked by Barreto.

 The reviewer here also noted the similarities: https://www.cbr.com/planet-of-the-apes-special-1/

 

 The middle issue, the Spectacular has the most extensive display, I see him on pages 6-9, 15-17, 21-23, 26-30.

 

 The third issue, the Giant, also features Infantino layouts.

 It would be interesting to see whether Infantino laid out all three issues or only the pages I identified.

 What could have incited Infantino to come out of retirement anonymously shortly before his death? Medical bills, personal relationship with the Barretos? Eduardo Barreto (Diego's father) had himself worked on DC Retroactive: Superman - The '70s (Sept. 2011) from his hospital bed shortly before his death.

 

 It is not unusual for artists to use uncredited help to reach deadlines but this sudden intrusion of Infantino in Diego Barreto's work may remain an unsolved mystery.

 

Chronologie d'un flashback dans New Invaders 7

Dans ce billet, je vais montrer comment je combine des recherches historiques pour construire la chronologie de personnages fictifs.

Le comics New Invaders 7 résume l'histoire du super-héros des années quarante Thin Man (créé dans Mystic Comics 4) avec plusieurs pages de flashbacks.

Page 8 découverte de la cité cachée de Kalahia (Mystic Comics 4)
Page 10 dialogue avec la native Olalla, scène inédite, entre les cases 3 et 4 page 4 de Mystic Comics 4
Page 11 demande de quitter la cité (Mystic Comics 4)
Page 12 avec Captain America vs Agent Axis, scène inédite, avant le flashback de Marvel Comics Presents 34
Page 13 résumé du flashback dans Marvel Comics Presents 34 (Kalahia détruite par des V-2)
Page 14 résumé de Marvel Comics Presents 34 (Thin Man tue Agent Axis par vengeance)
Page 15 procès de Thin Man, scène inédite
Page 16 en prison, scène inédite 

 
Quand a lieu la scène de la page 12 ? Aucune année ni aucun mois ne sont fournis pour cette scène.
D'après New Invaders 7, Thin Man a 27 ans quand il découvre la cité secrète de Kalahia en 1939, et 33 ans quand les habitants sont assassinés par des missiles V2. S'il est né mi 1911, il aurait 33 ans de juin 1944 à juin 1945. Selon sa date de naissance (qui n'est pas connue), la destruction de Kalahia peut donc varier de deux ans (février 1944 à décembre 1945) :
Né le 31 janv. 1911, 27 ans de févr. 1938 à janv. 1939, 33 ans de févr. 1944 à janv. 1945.
Né le 31  déc. 1911, 27 ans de janv. 1939 à déc. 1939, 33 ans de janv. 1945 à déc. 1945.

Le flashback avec Captain America a lieu trois semaines avant la découverte de la destruction de la cité par les missiles V-2. Les missiles V-2 ont été produits de mars 1942 à 1945. L'Allemagne ne peut atteindre l'Himalaya avec ces missiles étant donné leur portée de 320 km... la puissance de l'Axe la plus proche du Tibet était le Japon, présent en Birmanie de mai 1942 à début 1945.

Mes recherches ont montré que les Japonais avaient permis aux Allemands d'utiliser leurs bases de sous-marins en échange de missiles et de technologie de propulsion. D'après des messages décryptés envoyés par l'ambassade japonaise à l'Allemagne, douze missiles V-2 (A-4) démontés ont été expédiés par sous-marins au Japon. Ils ont quitté Bordeaux en aoùt 1944 à bord des sous-marins U-219 et U-195 et sont arrivés à Djakarta en décembre 1944.

la distance de la ville de Bhamo, occupée par les Japonais en Birmanie à Nyingchi, au Tibet est de 324 km, ce qui est la limite de la portée des missiles. Les premiers missiles V-2 lancés contre les Alliés l'ont été à partir de septembre 1944. Il faut tenir compte du temps pour acheminer les missiles jusqu'à la Birmanie puis Bhamo, et du fait que cette ville est capturée par les Alliés en le 15 décembre 1944. Après cette date, les forces Japonaises reculent vers le sud, ce qui place l'Himalaya hors de portée. La fenêtre est donc les deux premières semaines de décembre 1944.

En plaçant les destruction de Kalahia en décembre 1944 juste avant le départ de Bhamo par les Japonais, "trois semaines avant la destruction" nous amène à fin novembre 1944 pour ce flashback de la page 12. 

Voilà comment, malgré l'absence de repères précis, j'ai pu placer très précisément ce flashback dans la chronologie de Captain America à l'aide d'informations historiques.

Spider-Man: Blue Chronology

Spider-Man: Blue


The events of this mini-series have been omitted from the official Marvel indexes. I worked it out ten years ago. It is provided here for those who wish such an index.

#1
p1-5 present time (2002), Spidey puts a rose on the Brooklyn Bridge on Valentine's Day
p6-15 = ASM #40 pages 1-18 (fight vs Goblin)
p16-17 Peter, JJJ, Joe Robertson (before his first appearance in ASM #51)
p18-19 Peter meets Harry and Norman in the hospital (both last in ASM #40), then Flash and Gwen (both last in ASM #39)
p20 Peter Parker, May Parker = ASM #41 page 10
p21-23 Peter Parker buys a motorbike and presents it to the gang, same as ASM #41 page 19-20 pn 1-2
p24 MJ and May (occurs between ASM #41 and #42)

#2
p1-3 Spider-Man reads newspaper about Goblin
p4 Kraven (last in ASM #34)
p5-7 Peter, Flash, Gwen, Pr Warren in class (=ASM 42 between page 8 and 9)
p8 Kraven, Rhino (last in ASM #42)
p9 JJJ, Betty Brant, Peter Parker, Joe Robertson (=ASM #43 page 2 and/or 14)
p10-13 fight vs Rhino = ASM #43 pages 7-12
p14-15 Spidey and Dr Connors = ASM #43 page 15
p16-19 Spidey beats Rhino = ASM #43 pages 18-19, Kraven looking at the scene
p20-22 May, Peter meets MJ = ASM #42 page 20

#3
p1-6 Peter introduces MJ to Flash, Gwen, Harry. (=ASM #44, pages 10-11)
p7-10 TV announces a search for the Lizard at Penn Station. Pete and MJ ride there (mirroring ASM #43 pages 3-4,6 when Pete and MJ react to the TV announcing the rampage of the Rhino)
p11 Spidey meets Martha and Billy Connors (= ASM #44, page 6)
p12-15 Spidey fights Lizard, Kraven helps Lizard escape (=ASM #44 pages 14-18)
p16 Peter joins MJ outside the station (mirrors ASM #43, p 14)
p17-20 Spidey subdues Lizard, Dr Connors reunited with family (=ASM #45 page 4,7-19)
p21-22 Peter goes home at night, meets Harry asking him to be his roommate (mirroring ASM #46 page 6 but must happen page 19)

#4
p1-6 Peter asks May if he can move in with Harry (=ASM #46 page 10 but must happen on page 19)
p7-8 Vulture and Blackie Drago in prison (=ASM #48 page 3)
p9-10 Peter brings May to Anna Watson (=ASM #46 p10 or 19-20), MJ goes out and leaves in car with Harry
p11-12 Drago escapes prison (with Kraven's help) and recovers Vulture's costume (= ASM #48 pages 5-6)
p13-14 Gwen, Flash, MJ and Harry have a housewarming party
p15-17 New Vulture fights Spidey (=ASM #48 pages 12-18)
p18 Gwen, Flash, MJ and Harry at the housewarming party
p19-22 Spidey defeated by new Vulture (=ASM #48 pages 19-20)

#5
p1-4 Harry shows the apartment to Peter (mirroring ASM #46 page 20) who, sick, goes to bed (mirroring ASM #49 page 3)
p5 Kraven finds Spidey's tracks in the snow
p6 Kraven cures the Vulture (Toomes) so he can do what Drago couldn't
p7-11 MJ and Gwen tend to the sick Peter while Flash and Harry play billiards (between pages 9 and 10 of #49)
p12-15 Spidey joins the battle between the two Vultures (their battle reflects the battle between the two Vultures in ASM #63 and the battle between Kraven and Drago in ASM #49)
p16-18 He saves Flash
p19-20 Spidey beats the two Vultures
p21-22 Peter joins the others in the apartment. Flash announces he joined the army (he was drafted in ASM #43 page 20). Kraven looks from outside.

#6
p1-4 Kraven reviews the fights Spider-Man had vs his enemies
p5-9 Peter and Harry receive guests Gwen, MJ, Flash and other students for a party.
p10-17 Kraven bursts in and kidnaps Harry, Spidey beats him under Norman's eyes (=ASM #47 pages 11-19, the defeat of Kraven at the hands of Spidey is from ASM #49 page 19)
p18-19 Peter and Gwen make out
p20-22 Peter completes his recording, MJ joins him (in the present)
-------------------------------------------------

So an index for the individual issues would look like this:

#1
Spider-Man (from SM: Quality of Life #4 '02, also concurrent with ASM #40-41 '66)

J. Jonah Jameson (between ASM #40 and #41 '66)
Joe Robertson (from ASM Annual #37/2 '09)
Harry Osborn (from ASM #40 and concurrent with ASM #41 '66)
Norman Osborn (between ASM #40 '66 and #47 '67)
Flash Thompson (from ASM #39 '66 and concurrent with ASM #41 '66)
Gwen Stacy (from ASM #39 '66 and concurrent with ASM #41 '66)
May Parker (concurrent with ASM #41 '66)
Mary Jane Watson (from ASM #38 '66)

Villain: Green Goblin (concurrent with and continuing from ASM #40 '66; next in ASM #47 '67)

Note: this issue includes memories (reminder flashbacks) of
- ASM #40 (fight with the Green Goblin),
- ASM #41 (Peter tells May he wants to buy a motorbike; he buys it and presents it to the gang).

It shows the following new scenes (plain flashbacks):
- Peter sells photos to JJJ and meets Robbie (between ASM #40 and #41).
- Peter visits Harry and Norman at the hospital and meets Flash and Gwen there (between #ASM 40 and #41).
- MJ comes looking for Peter but May tells her he isn't there.

#2
Spider-Man (from ASM #41; concurrent with ASM #42 and #43 '66)

Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #42 '66)
Flash Thompson (concurrent with ASM #42 '66)
Pr Warren (between ASM #39 '66 and #48 '67)
Jonah Jameson (concurrent with ASM #43 '66)
Joe Robertson (next in ASM #51 '67)
Betty Brant (concurrent with ASM #43 '66)
Curt Connors (concurrent with ASM #43 '66)
May Parker (concurrent with ASM #42 '66)
Mary Jane Watson (concurrent with ASM #42 '66)

Villains: Kraven (from ASM #34 '66)
Rhino (concurrent with ASM #43 '66)

Note: this issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #43 (fights Rhino then defeats him after getting help from Dr Connors)
- ASM #42 (Peter meets MJ for dinner).
These two previous events are chronologically inverted in his recollection.

New scenes (fb):
- Spidey reads newspaper in newsstand about Green Goblin's death and is watched by Kraven (this must be in the evening of the first fight vs Rhino).
- Peter with Gwen and Flash in Pr Warren's class.

#3
Spider-Man (concurrent with ASM #43-46 '67)

Mary-Jane Watson (concurrent with ASM #43 '66 and #44 '67)
Flash Thompson (concurrent with ASM #44 '67)
Harry Osborn (concurrent with ASM #44-46 '67)
Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #44 '67)
May Parker (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)

Lizard (concurrent with ASM #44-45 '67)
Kraven

Martha Connors and Billy Connors (concurrent with ASM #44-45 '67)
ESU students

Note: This issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #44 (introducing MJ to the gang; meeting Martha and Billy Connors at Penn Station; fighting the Lizard in the underground),
- ASM #43 (Peter and MJ learn of a super-villain rampage, go there by bike, Peter changes into Spider-Man, reunites with MJ after battle; this actually happened with the Rhino but here Peter misremembers it as happening with the Lizard),
- ASM #46 (Harry asks Peter to be his roommate; originally asked Peter while driving him in his car; this is either a previous or a later talk about it),
- ASM #45 (The Lizard smashes his lab, Spidey subdues the Lizard and Connors is reunited with his family).

New scenes (fb):
- Kraven helps the Lizard escape.
- Harry has a talk at night with Peter (that cannot be when he asks him first to be his roommate, it's probably when Harry asked Peter to confirm between panels 2 and 3 page 19 of ASM #46)

#4
Spider-Man (concurrent with ASM #46 and #48 '67)

May Parker (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)
Anna Watson (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)
Harry Osborn (concurrent with ASM #46 and #48-49 '67)
Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #46 and #48-49 '67)
Flash Thompson (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)
Mary Jane Watson (concurrent with ASM #46 and #48-49 '67)

Vulture (concurrent with ASM #48 '67)
Blackie Drago (concurrent with ASM #48 '67)
Kraven

Note: This issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #46 (Peter and May have a talk about moving out; originally this happens at the train station when May comes back from Florida),
- ASM #48 (Blackie Drago gets the secret place of the Vulture's costume; beats Spidey).

New scene (fb): Harry, Flash, MJ and Gwen have a housewarming party at Harry's apartment (new but similar to partying scenes in #46, #47 and #49; Flash had already left for the army when Drago fought Spidey; the fight with Drago occurred after Kraven had kidnapped Harry at Flash's leaving party; between pages 19 and 20 of ASM #46)

#5
Spider-Man (concurrent with ASM #46 and #49 '67)

Harry Osborn (concurrent with ASM #46 and #49 '67)
Mary Jane Watson (concurrent with ASM #46 and #49 '67)
Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #46 and #49 '67)
Flash Thompson (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)

Kraven (concurrent with ASM #49 '67)
Vulture (from ASM #48 '67)
Blackie Drago (concurrent with ASM #49 '67 and #63 '68)

Note: This issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #46 (Harry shows the apartment to Peter; originally this occurred before the fights with Kraven and Drago),
- ASM #49 (Peter sick, goes to bed; MJ, Harry and Gwen partying while Peter is in bed; Spider-Man fights the new Vulture and another super-villain; originally Flash had already left for the army; actually Mary Jane Watson and Gwen came to see Harry to go out with him while Peter was in bed),
- ASM #63 (the two vultures fight; this actually happened much later but Peter confuses it with the Kraven/Drago fight),
- ASM #44 (Flash is going to join the army; this originally happened much earlier and cannot have been a result of Spidey fighting Drago).

New scenes (fb):
- Flash and Harry play billiards,
- Spidey saves Flash's life (both must have happened before ASM #47)

#6
Spider-Man (next in ASM #43 '02; also in flashback concurrent with ASM #47 and #49 '67)

Harry Osborn (concurrent with ASM #47 '67)
Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #47 '67 and following from it)
Mary Jane Watson (next in ASM #43 '02; also concurrent with ASM #47 and #49 '67)
ESU students

Norman Osborn (concurrent with ASM #47 '67)
Kraven (concurrent with ASM #47 and #49 '67)

Note: This issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #47 (Kraven crashes Flash Thompson's leaving party and kidnaps Harry Osborn)
- ASM #49 (Spidey beats Kraven)

New scene (fb): Gwen and Peter make out (between ASM #47 and #48 '67)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Individual chronologies:

Spider-Man
ASM 40
SM:Blue 1-FB (16-19)
ASM 41
SM:Blue 2-FB (1-3) (evening of the first fight vs Rhino, the newspaper still features death of Green Goblin)
ASM 42 (1-8) (arrives at school)
SM:Blue 2-FB (5-7) (Peter in class)
ASM 42 (9-20)
...
ASM 46 (1-19 pn 1-2)
SM:Blue 3-FB (21-22)
ASM 46 (19 pn 3)
SM:Blue 4-FB (1-6)
ASM 46 (19 pn4-5)
SM:Blue 4-FB (9-10)
ASM 46 (20)
...
ASM 47
SM:Blue 6 (18-19)
ASM 48
...
ASM 49 (1-9)
SM:Blue 5 (7-11)
ASM 49 (10-20)
...
SM: QOL 4
SM: Blue 1 (1-5) (deposits a rose on Brooklyn Bridge)
SM: Blue 6 (completes his recording)
ASM 44/485


Mary-Jane Watson
ASM 38
SM:PL (37) (arrives in NY)
SM:Blue 1-FB (tries to meet Peter)
SM: PL (38) (leaves her NY apartment to go to the dinner with the Parkers)
...
ASM 46
SM:Blue 4-FB
ASM 47
...
ASM 49 (1-9)
SM:Blue 5 (7-11)
ASM 49 (10-20)
...
ASM 43/484
SM: Blue 6 (joins Peter)
ASM 44/485

J. Jonah Jameson
ASM 40
SM: Blue 1-FB (16-17) (buys photos from Goblin fight)
ASM 41

Joe Robertson
ASM@ 37/2
SM: Blue 1-FB (16-17) (buys photos from Goblin fight)
SM: Blue 2-FB (informs his staff Rhino has escaped)
ASM 51

Harry Osborn
ASM 40
SM: Blue 1-FB (18-19)
ASM 41
...
ASM 46 (10-11)
SM:Blue 3-FB (21-22)
SM:Blue 4-FB
ASM 46 (20)
...
ASM 49 (1-9)
SM:Blue 5 (7-11)
ASM 49 (10-20)
...

Gwen Stacy
ASM 39
SM: Blue 1-FB (18-19)
ASM 41
ASM 42 (Peter arrives at school)
SM: Blue 2-FB (5-7) (Peter in class)
ASM 43
...
ASM 46
SM:Blue 4 (13-18)
ASM 47
SM:Blue 6 (18-19)
ASM 48
...
ASM 49 (1-9)
SM:Blue 5 (7-11)
ASM 49 (10-20)
...

Flash Thompson
ASM 39
SM: Blue 1-FB (18-19)
ASM 41
ASM 42
SM:Blue 2-FB (5-7)
...
ASM 46
SM:Blue 4 (13-21)
ASM 47

Norman Osborn
ASM 40
SM: Blue 1-FB
ASM 47

May Parker
ASM 41
SM:Blue 1-FB (24)
ASM 42
...
ASM46
SM:Blue 4-FB (1-6)
ASM 46 (19)

Kraven
ASM 34
SM:Blue 2-FB
SM:Blue 3-FB
SM:Blue 4-FB
SM:Blue 5-FB
SM:Blue 6-FB (1-6)
ASM 47

Pr Warren
ASM 39
SM:Blue 2-FB
ASM 48

Vulture
ASM 48
SM:Blue 5-FB (cured from poison by Kraven)
ASM 63

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

List of differences between the two narratives

In Blue:
May doesn't leave for vacation
Spidey doesn't have a broken arm
He meets MJ after his second and third fights with the Rhino
Peter rides with MJ to see the Lizard (#3)
Spidey has one fight with the Lizard (#3)
May overhears when Harry proposes his flat to Peter (#3)
Peter tells May in the morning about Harry's proposal (#4)
Kraven is behind the scenes for Rhino's, Lizard's and Vultures' (Drago, Toomes) attacks (#2-6)
Peter occupies the apartment after fighting Drago (#5)
Spidey has one fight with Kraven (#6)
Drago fights with Toomes (#5)
The two vultures fight (#5)
The first fight with Drago occurs before Kraven's attack at Flash's party (#4)
Flash announces he leaves for the army after Spidey's second fight with Drago (#5)

In ASM:
May leaves for a vacation (#44-46)
Spidey has a broken arm (#44-46)
Peter meets MJ before his second fight with Rhino (#42)
Peter rides with MJ to see the Rhino (#43)
Spidey has two fights with the Lizard (#44-45)
Harry proposes his flat while May is in vacation (#46)
Peter tells May about Harry's proposal when she arrives from vacation (#46)
Peter occupies the apartment before fighting Drago (#46)
Spidey has two fights with Kraven (#47,49)
Drago fights with Kraven (#49)
The two vultures don't fight before ASM #63
The first fight with Drago occurs after Kraven's attack at Flash's party (#48)
Flash announces he leaves for the army after Spidey's third fight with Rhino (#43)

Remaining problems in the chronology of the new sequences:
There are no spots to explain Flash's presence while Peter is sick in bed (ASM #49, Blue #4-5)
Gwen makes out with Peter after Flash's leaving party (ASM #47) but before she tends for him in ASM #48. Two possible solutions: either this occurs after Kraven's defeat in ASM #49, or Harry, Flash, Gwen and MJ crashed Peter's house to party while he had a broken arm and when May was in vacation (#45)

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My approach was the following:
1) identify where the scenes from Blue come from, which are reminder flashbacks (rfb)
2) identify the new scenes, new flashbacks (fb)
3) only add the new scenes to the chronology

Examples:
1) The battle vs the Goblin occurs differently in each series, I just figure it's the same battle (rfb) even if the recollection (Blue) doesn't match the recalled event (ASM);
2) In ASM there are twin battles with Lizard and with Kraven. In Blue these are combined into one, with the end of the second battle attached to the first. I don't consider them new flashbacks, but a shortened, conflated version (rfb);
3) In Blue, MJ and Peter learn about the Lizard's rampage and go there by bike. Peter goes beyond the police line, changes into Spidey and fights Lizard. Then goes back to MJ. But
in ASM, it's Rhino who is rampaging (ASM 43). Rather than figure that Pete went twice with MJ to see a villain, I consider the parts where he goes and leaves with MJ the same and so don't include them as they aren't new information. They are all reminder flashbacks but misremembered in their sequence.


When reading ASM #40-49, one finds repeat battles with the villains and other repeated motifs because it was a monthly series. In Blue, Loeb reorganised the material to avoid repetition and so that it would make a narrative with a beginning and end. He starts with the Goblin fight and finishes with Kraven's defeat (in #49 but using the earlier Kraven fight's circumstances from #47). So Peter getting an apartment becomes a major theme (rather than the one issue affair in ASM #46) as it is a symbol of reaching adulthood along with falling in love with Gwen. Kraven is given as the thread for the villains' attacks (he sets up the villains vs Spidey then attacks himself), including the Vulture (Drago) even though in ASM Kraven fought Spidey (#47) before Drago (#48). This remains entirely possible if we consider the scenes of Drago in prison with Toomes in #48 as flashbacks occurring before ASM #47. One could ask, "Why does Kraven set up the escapes of Drago and Toomes (before #47) to fight Spidey if he then doesnt wait for them to attack Spidey himself?" but ASM Annual '96 provides an answer, this shows Kraven again attacking Harry; i.e. there was an attack vs Harry before Drago attacked Spidey and another one after, and Peter conflated these events just as he conflated many other similar ones in the Blue flashbacks. This later Kraven attack conveniently occurs after Drago's (#48) and the two vultures' (#63), as well as after the reappearance of the Goblin (ca ASM #66) who was thought dead after #40 (Kraven reads the Bugle reporting his death in Blue).

Mythes autour du Yellow Kid

Le Yellow Kid est une des premières stars de la BD. Il en a longtemps été considéré comme le premier héros, comme le diffuseur de la bulle comme code des paroles humaines, comme une caricature de Chinois. 

Ces informations méritent ajustement et correction.

Rien ne présageait son succès. Le personnage apparait d'abord en 1894 dans le décor de scènes dessinées par Outcault, il n'a pas de nom, pas sa couleur jaune, pas de texte et encore moins de dialogues. Selon l'historien de la BD Ian Gordon, Outcault ne le considère pas comme un individu mais comme un archétype.

Ces scènes ne sont pas des bandes dessinées, juste des cartoons, qui deviendront des planches entières.

Sa couleur jaune sera le fait du responsable de la couleur Charles W. Saalburg (par ailleurs auteur de la première série en couleur en 1894). Le nom « Yellow Kid » viendra des lecteurs. Outcault le baptisera Mickey Dugan.

Au départ il n'est donc même pas le héros des planches hebdomadaires dans lesquels il apparait. Ces séries de planches ne portent pas son nom. Elles sont dénommées Hogan's Alley, puis McFadden’s Row of Flats (18 octobre 1896-10 janvier 1897), enfin Around the World with the Yellow Kid (17 janvier 1897-30 mai 1897), et Ryan’s Arcade. Aucune de ces séries n'est une bande dessinée.


Il semble que très tôt, le personnage ait été pris pour un Chinois. Dans la planche du 6 septembre 1896 qui décrit la visite de Li Hung Chang à New York, le Yellow Kid parade en tête, déguisé, et s'amuse de cette confusion : « He thinks I'm a Chinaman.» Qui voit cette image sans lire le texte sur la chemise peut s'y méprendre.

Le lendemain, Outcault essaye de déposer la marque « The Yellow Dugan Kid ».

Une note sur le bras le nomme Mick Dugan le 4 octobre juste avant qu'Outcault change d'éditeur.

C'est alors que concurremment à la planche hebdomadaire McFadden's Flats, le Yellow Kid apparait dans une véritable bande dessinée à son nom qui commence le 25 octobre 1896. C'est celle où une bulle sort d'un phonographe, puis de la bouche du Yellow Kid et enfin d'un perroquet. Il semble que ce code soit d'abord celui du langage non humain car dans les épisodes suivants le Yellow Kid continue de porter ses dialogues sur sa chemise tandis que les bulles sont attachées au perroquet, à un chien, une chèvre, un réveil, une pie, un chat, etc. Jamais, ni dans la BD ni dans les planches, la bulle ne devient le code habituel des paroles humaines.

Le Yellow Kid apparait dans une planche de Buster Brown de 1907, il est nommé « Petit Chinois » lors de sa parution en France en album, perpétuant sur notre territoire une confusion qui semble avoir déjà existé.

Peu étonnant que les historiens de la BD y aient parfois perdu leurs petits.