Gerry Duggan a écrit un long flashback des les épisodes 2 et 3. On y voit les activités d'Emma Frost au service du Kingpin dans les années 80: alcooliser Tony Stark, influencer l'avocate Jennifer Walters, influencer Nick Fury pour qu'il ferme les yeux lors des événements de DD 232. Elektra, en costume rouge, est l'assassin du Kingpin et Spider-Man porte son costume noir. Et là quelque chose ne colle pas. Elektra se met au service du Kingpin dans DD 174 (novembre 1981) meurt dans DD 181 (avril 1982), ressuscite dans le 190 (janvier 1983) après avoir été purgée de ses crimes, et s'habille en blanc avant de rejoindre la secte Les Chastes à laquelle appartenait Stick, mentor de Matt Murdock. Spider-Man n'apparait avec son costume noir que dans ASM 252 (mai 1984). Spider-Man portera un costume noir jusqu'au numéro 300 (mai 1988).
Donc ou bien il faut trouver une solution pour que Spider-Man porte un costume noir dans la période novembre 1981-avril 1982, ou bien Elektra travaille pour le Kingpin entre mai 1984 et mai 1988.
J'ai exploré les deux pistes.
Dans ASM 225-226, février-mars 1982, Spider-Man se bat contre un justicier habillé de noir et le place dans un asile après lui avoir enlevé son costume noir. Il avait donc un costume noir à sa disposition mais ce n'est pas vraiment celui que l'on voit dessiné.
Pour la période 1984-1988, je me suis demandé si un personnage pouvait se faire passer pour Elektra, par exemple Typhoid Mary qui apparait en mai 1988 ou Erynys, une Elektra maléfique qui apparait lors du retour d'Elektra dans DD 322-325. J'ai partagé cette hypothèse sur le Marvel Chronology Project.
"Elektra is cleaned in DD 190 (Jan 83), dresses in white, joins the Chaste, shaves her head and only gets corrupted again in Fall from Grace (1993) when she reintegrates the part of her essence that had been left in Garrett. Could the scenes of Erynys getting that part of Elektra's essence in Fall From Grace be interpreted as flashbacks so that the Elektra seen by Emma and the little girl are is actually Erynys? Emma would see "her" with her mind and that would translate as "Elektra."
"I've also considered Typhoid Mary impersonating Elektra with Kingpin's approval. Spider-Man ditches the black costume in ASM 300 (May 88) and Typhoid Mary starts working for the Kinpin in DD 254 (May 88) so there is a small window where the Kingpin could trap Emma Frost with a fake story of "Elektra" needing a witness removed. Spider-Man just before ASM 300, Typhoid Mary just after DD 254."
J'ai dû répondre à des objections, notamment que les personnages devrait manifester de la surprise de voir Elektra en vie si je plaçais la séquence après DD 182 (son enterrement).
"For Elektra, whatever we try to come up with that involves a black costumed Spider-Man--real Elektra, Erynye, Typhoid Mary--it's going to clash with a supposedly dead Elektra. BUT in DD 190 the Hand tries to steal the corpse of Elektra to resurrect her. Given their ability to resurrect their warriors, an Elektra active in
the mid-80s as an assassin would hardly be so surprising. "Oh yeah,
it's the Hand, they resurrected her. They do that all the time."
"(Note also she does not leave any witness alive in that story so it matters little whether people think she's dead if there's nobody left to be surprised by her presence.)
"The most unlikely option is that it's the real Elektra since she's supposed to be sinless and living with the Chaste.
"I've not done a close reading of Fall From Grace to check if Erynye's origin can actually take place several years earlier in Marvel's continuity. On one hand it raises the question of why would they lend their fake Elektra to Kingpin? On the other hand, if the Hand lent a fake Elektra to Kingpin people would be convinced that's the real Elektra. It leaves open the matter of choosing a time from 1984 to 1988 to place the story.
"I slightly prefer my Typhoid Mary solution. It slightly reinterprets Duggan's story. Rather than the real Elektra--since that cannot be her--seeking help from Emma, that's actually a plot from the Kingpin to involve Emma in
the suspicious disappearance of a child. It is established that Typhoid
Mary works for Kingpin and that he wants her to mess with Daredevil.
Let's say he first planned of Mary impersonating Elektra and then thought that wouldn't work as DD would see through it and then shifted to "Have him fall in love with you as you are and then break his heart". Another advantage is that it pinpoints Spider-Man's placement: in May 1988.
"I suggested the problem and my solution to Duggan on Twitter, he just made a joke. Probably I should reach the editor.
"Of course we can just dismiss the black costume but on what basis?"
Constatant les éléments qui plaçait la séquence au milieu des années 80, je me suis rendu compte que le scénariste avait par erreur placé Elektra: Assassin 1-8 à cette époque alors que c'était censé êetre une aventure passée d'Elektra, avant son apparition dans Daredevil 168.
"I think I figured what happened in the writer's mind. Fall from Grace (1992) refers to Elektra: Assassin (1985-86). Duggan (born 1973) when reading those stories as a child might have believed Elektra:
Assassin took place between DD 190 and 323, at the same time that
Spidey had a black costume (1984-88). Or, less probably, he first read
the Elektra stories in Elektra
Saga 1-4 (Feb-May 1984) and thought this mini-series contemporary with
1984 issues (ASM 252, May 1984 is the first appearance of the black
costume) rather than a reprint.
"Not that it helps us in any way but it points to when Duggan thought it was taking place. Invisible Woman is also depicted in her negative costume (est. 1983)."
"There are fair objections to replacing Elektra with someone else. But I already covered some of those.
"1. When you introduce the "misremembering" gambit, that can also work for the elements that allow one to say "this is really Elektra."
"2. If the precedent is Uncanny X-Men Annual 2 with Selene/Tessa, that's also a case of wrong character because of the time frame involved.
"3. The "What aren't you dead?" I have already explained. The Hand was already about to resurrect Elektra like they do all their members.
"4. And Emma and Elektra didn't know each other anyway. We have no background that would even establish that Emma knew who Elektra was or that she would know an Elektra had died.
"(Note on semantics: Elektra is supposed
to be alive after DD 190. She's just believed to be dead by Kingpin,
Bullseye, Murdock and associates. Outside those circles who knew Elektra?)
"5. And the matter of a believed-to-be-dead person going around when
there are never any witness to wonder about it is rather moot.
"Unless we have another story where Elektra refers to that shared history we are free to reinterpret
"Now, the third issue shows Elektra "wanting forgiveness" training the girl in martial arts. This is at odds with the ruthless killer from the previous issue. This also refutes the Typhoid as Elektra hypothesis. Emma states that the Genosha genocide (2001) is what prevented her from bringing Isabelle home.
"This leaves the following scenario if, like me, you don't want to dismiss Spidey's black costume on Emma's "bad memory":
Elektra leaves part of her essence in Garrett (Elektra: Assassin 8) > Elektra dies (DD 181) > The Hand tries to revive Elektra, DD cleans her soul, she's resurrected by Stone and joins the Chaste in a white costume (DD 190) > Erynys gets the Elektra
essence from Garrett (DD 323) > she acts as assassin for Kingpin
leaving no witnesses and involves Emma Frost into disappearing Isabelle
to set her up (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2) > Elektra in
white costume recovers her essence (and some related memories) from
Erynys (DD 325) > "wanting forgiveness" she tracks down Isabelle and
trains her (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2)"
On m'a alors signalé que le prologue de DD 190 dans lequel Elektra escalade la falaise vers le repaire des Chastes pourrait avoir lieu bien après sa date de publication. Cela a généré plusieurs commentaires.
"Clive's objection is valid. The cleansing of Elektra occurs on the publication date of DD 190 since it's DD doing it.
"Her joining the Chaste can indeed happen anytime later like Jason proposes.
"The problem is Elektra returning to
assassin work after she's been cleansed. And not just killing henchmen
but witnesses. Given the number of people we see her killing, she could
not be clean enough to join the Chaste later on.
"It comes down to what you're willing to squint on:
"Spidey's black costume. (Col Fury & Clive)
"Only a cleansed Elektra could join the Chaste. (Jason)
"Real Elektra in issue 2. (Leoparis)
"I thought I had a rather consensual proposal with Elektra trying to atone for the murders committed by the part of her soul in Erynys (it is Elektra in #3 but it wasn't really her in #2)
but I failed to convince anyone. If nobody is willing to come to my
side, I'm willing to adopt Jason's solution under the proviso that Elektra takes other unseen actions to cleanse her soul (like we see her helping Isabelle) between #2 and #3.
"(The colors used for the prologue and epilogue of DD 190 make me wonder
whether the early pages were a false flashback, i.e. we are led to
believe it's a flashback but the last pages reveal it's her present
attempt we've seen.)"
Après quelques discussions, j'ai trouvé que c'était la meilleure solution:
"I've weighed all options equally and worked out chronology listings for
each. But I won't post all that here as one option proved better than
the others and that post is long enough as it is. People got confused
when I put several options together and misattributed to Jason ideas
that were mine. Jason never proposed to replace Elektra with someone else nor proposed to make a placement when she was dead. He has always had a strong proposal in that he maintained that Elektra was Elektra, the black costume was the black costume and it could take place at a time when Elektra was alive (after her resurrection and before joining the Chaste).
"After much reflection and close reading, I'd say Jason's version is the
best one. It had a single weakness which others and I pointed, "Why
would a cleansed Elektra return to assassin work? How could a cleansed Elektra manage to climb the ice wall in DD 190? How could an assassin Elektra join the Chaste?"
"Jason provided explanations, which I find satisfying, and I found another one. He first suggested to move the epilog in DD 190 later in time. Then he pointed that Kingpin uses a telepath who controls people. We even see Emma controlling Nick Fury and She-Hulk.
"The Elektra circa DD 174-181 hypothesis has implausibilities of its own.
"Elektra works as Kingpin's assassin from DD 174 to 181 (Sep 81-Apr 82), a rather short time. If Devil's Reign 1-2 features Elektra during that period, where is that summer she spends with Isabelle in England in Devil's Reign 3? Elektra
going AWOL for the summer to England from her position as Kingpin's
assassin and even more to live with a person targeted by the Kingpin is
rather unlikely. That very move would endanger Isabelle. Unless it
occured after Elektra had left the Kingpin's employ.
"And since she left it by dying, after her resurrection, it seems DD 190
would need to be broken for that hypothesis as well (i.e. the fb in #3
would occur after her resurrection). Otherwise we would need to go from
1982 issues to 1994 issues and Isabelle should have significantly aged.
"Besides, Elektra's actions in #2
are treasonous toward the Kingpin, she alerts Emma to protect a
witness, then kills and maims the assassins sent after Isabelle.
Spider-Man is instructed to prevent Elektra from killing them all. So we would have witnesses of Elektra's betrayal (in addition to the sai wounds that would implicate her even if, say, Emma erased the memories of those left alive).
"The elements in the flashbacks point to the mid-80s rather than the early 80s.
"The angular painted cover with Dazzler (who is not in
the story) seems like an homage to mid-80s Sienkiewicz covers (who was
cover artist on Dazzler from July 83-Jan 85). On the cover She-Hulk has
her Avenger uniform (1982-84) rather than her ragged white clothes from
her own series (Feb 1980-Feb 82).
"The next issue blurb for #2 mentions the
Invisible Woman. Sue Richards only uses the name Invisible Woman from FF
284, Nov 85. She proposes using the Baxter Building as collateral but
the building was destroyed in FF 278-279
and the banker shows no surprise. Fortunately Emma does not identify as
"Invisible Woman" within the flashback. So the sequence with Emma as Mrs
Richards must be somewhere between FF 256 (Jul 83) and 278 (May 85).
The scene with She-Hulk takes place in New York so after the end of her own series (Feb 82) where she was in Los Angeles and after she joined the Avengers (from A 222, Jul 1982). The scene with Stark also probably occurs in
New York at the start of O'Neil's run (Stark is tempted to drink from
IM 166, Jan 1983). The Nick Fury flashback seems to take place during
the latter part of Born Again (ca DD 232, Jul 86). The character of
Wesley, in the Emma/Elektra fb, was created in Reborn (DD 227-233). In DD 174-190, the Kingpin's right-hand man was Flint.
"Even is these scenes are not connected to each other, they all point to the mid-80s.
"Emma says to Elektra, "I can't make your boyfriend like you" but in DD 168-190, there is no doubt that Murdock loves her. It's only once Murdock has renewed his relationship with Karen Page that Elektra comes second (cf. EL4 12).
"Russ also asked if unreliable memory was an option.
"I do not think it is.
"The flashback in #1 is not presented as a memory from any particular character. It just starts with the caption "The past" so we are in omniscient narrator mode.
"The earlier pages of #2 are presented as Emma's memories as she talks with her lawyer. But the long sequence with Elektra and Spider-Man is not part of them. It starts with a caption "Years ago, at the Hellfire Club."
"Emma also clearly sees his original costume when she looks in
Peter's memory, which leaves us wondering how could she confuse his
costumes at a time when he had never had the black costume yet?
"Conclusion
"There are answers to every objection leveled so far. Yes, Elektra returning as an assassin after her resurrection undoes Miller's story but Miller's story was undone in more ways than one by Fall From Grace. In DD 319, an assassin from The Hand manages to climb the ice wall. So an assassin Elektra could as well.
"It seems Murdock's "cleansing" was only removing the hate from Elektra rather than making her sinless as we supposed.
"In that view, in issue #2 Elektra and Emma have a discussion where Elektra
points she is the merciful one while Emma is the cruel one. That dialog
and her empathy tend to show she is not anymore the ruthless killer she
was in DD 174-181.
"The sequence then goes: DD 190, Kingpin knows where the Hand is going to resurrect Elektra (page 21), Elektra's
hate is cleansed by DD's actions, she's resurrected by Stone (pages
24-34). Kingpin resumes employing her, using the fact that she's
believed dead. This might or not involve Emma erasing some of Elektra's memories. Elektra betrays Kingpin by going to Emma to protect Isabelle, she maims and kills the Kingpin's men (Devil's Reign: X-Men #2) and leaves his employ. She goes to England for the summer to teach martial arts to Isabelle (Devil's Reign: X-Men #3),
and possibly undertakes similar actions to atone for her past. She
attempts and succeeds to climb the ice wall and gets accepted by the
Chaste (DD 190 Epilog, page 35-38). She returns in
DD 319-321 (currently missing from her chronology) and following where
she gets corrupted by the part of her essence that had been left in Garrett and gets cast out from the Chaste.
"For the other characters involved, the placement would be after Murdock
is with Karen Page (due to Emma's barb) and probably before Kingpin
recruits a new assassin to replace the loss of Elektra (Typhoid Mary is the one that readily comes to my mind but any other would do)."
"But first, credit where credit is due. I've seen people refer to this
solution as mine. Jason's arguments convinced me his solution was
preferrable. I had two different solutions which left Miller's stories
untouched:
"1. Elektra is actually Typhoid Mary posing as Elektra in
order to trap Emma into kidnapping Isabelle. Even if this version
corrects the plot holes from Duggan, it became implausible with the
scene in issue 3. (Not impossible as protecting women is a trait of character of Mary.)
"2. Elektra is Elektra's essence--that had been left in Garrett--transferred by the Hand into a soulless body and rechristened "Erynys". (So she is sort of Elektra, the splinter soul is seen reintegrating Elektra's body in DD 325. It requires reinterpreting the transference ceremony in Fall From Grace as flashbacks and imagining that the Hand would lend their Dark Elektra to the Kingpin. This involved more difficult assumptions than Jason's version.)
"Regarding Emma as unreliable witness and the use of UX@2 2 as precedent:
I don't think that the change from Selene to Tessa required assuming
that Emma's memories were unreliable. It derived from the fact that it
cannot be Selene and that Selene and Tessa are visually similar and
could be readily swapped (such as changing the name in translation). The black costume, on the other hand, is visually much dissimilar to the red-and-blue costume. The flashback in Devil's Reign: X-Men #2
shows that Emma can distinguish the red-and-blue costume from the black
one. I can hardly imagine that she saw the blue-and-red twice but
remembers it as two costumes.
"By relying on an assumption ("Emma's history could lead to defective
memories") we start from a weak foundation. We do not need to accept
that assumption as changing Selene to Tessa does not entail that it was
Emma's mistake either:
"The use of the name Selene can be attributed to a number of other things
than Emma's supposedly confused memories, such as a stage name used by
Tessa in the presence of non-members (Namor). And even if we accepted the flashbacks in UX@2 2 as Emma's memories, "Selene" can simply be attributed to a slip of the tongue and/or to the specific mind-attack in UX@2 2
scrambling that one memory rather than to an unreliable mind for which
there is no evidence. There is no mind-attack shutting down Emma in Devil's Reign: X-Men.
"Conclusion: The flashbacks in UX@2 2 can remain "The past" rather than Emma's version of the past. I don't think we need to cross that line for either story.
"Chronologically there has never been anything preventing Elektra
from meeting the black costumed Spider-Man. She was only dead from DD
181 (Apr 82) to 190 (Jan 83). There were only implausibilities (which I
readily pointed). But Jason addressed all of those. Here they are with
additions and fine-tuning on my part:
"1. The Kingpin knew where Elektra was to be resurrected (DD 190) and could make his play to recover his assassin.
"2. By moving the epilog forward in time, we explain the red costume and the fact she is not yet part of the Chaste. Epilogs taking place in some distant future are customary (and certainly more acceptable than reinterpreting sequences as flashbacks or ignoring visual details).
"3. Elektra kills in secrecy and even witnesses are to be eliminated so that her existence is kept secret (Devil's Reign: X-Men
1). Hence nobody could be surprised that she is alive. However she
blows that cover by attacking the Kingpin's assassins and leaving some
of them alive (Devil's Reign: X-Men 2).
"4. Emma tells Elektra she cannot make her boyfriend love her (Devil's Reign: X-Men 2) even though DD was madly in love with Elektra during Miller's run (to the point of digging her tomb, DD 182). The only time when Elektra
comes second is when Matt is with Karen (from DD 232, see also EL4 12).
(I know that we could reinterpret it as Emma meant a different lover or
as a joke.)
"5. Elektra's inability to climb the ice wall had been attributed to her hateful disposition and Daredevil cleaned her of that (DD 190).
"6. We even have dialog with Emma that Elektra is the merciful one (Devil's Reign: X-Men 2). Not only does she act to save Isabelle, she also teaches her how to defend herself (Devil's Reign: X-Men 3). She hardly seems to be the cold assassin she was in Miller's run (DD 174-181).
"7. In Fall From Grace an assassin manages
to climb the wall (DD 319), therefore being an assassin is not what
prevents one to do so. So even as an assassin Elektra
could climb that wall. She's also cast out from the Chaste so we have
to wonder how clean she was (Fall from Grace TPB). The Chaste are also
seen killing their enemies.
"8. Emma can manipulate Elektra's mind
into forgetting the events of DD 181 and 190. Emma is seen manipulating
She-Hulk and Fury into not remembering and looking elsewhere. (Devil's Reign: X-Men 2)
"Plus my specific answers to the latest objections:
"9. I doubt that the black costume was drawn in
error. I pointed, using both intradiegetic and extradiegetic elements,
that the creators probably meant for the story to take place in the mid-80s. ("Sue Richards" is seen in the post-1983 negative costume. She-Hulk is in New York. Fury is from Reborn.) I think Duggan may have had a wrong chronology of Elektra, where Elektra: Assassin takes place before Fall From Grace (which is written as a sequel). In Fall From Grace dialogue from Fury says the events from Elektra
Assassin happened during the last presidential election, which could
forward that false impression. We see both Spider-Man's costumes, which
makes both a confusion on Emma's part and an art mistake implausible.
"10. Inserting Devil's Reign X-Men 1-3 during Miller's first run implies treasonous actions on the part of Elektra (protecting a witness and killing other assassins sent after her). And this is the other bad fit with 1981-82 stories: either Elektra
suspiciously disappears to train Isabelle after Emma was seen
intervening to take her away, either she leaves a means of contacting
her in England that could be traced back to her and Isabelle. Imagining several such trips by Elektra to England to train Isabelle just makes it even more implausible, not less. So the events of Devil's Reign: X-Men can play as a more conclusive termination of Elektra's employ (after her resurrection) than her death.
"Other--minor--arguments (but could be a clincher):
"11. Kingpin does not have a replacement for Elektra until Typhoid Mary. This can be construed to mean he did not need one because he secretly had the original.
"12. Comics are a visual medium and we must give priority to the black
costume (and other mid-80s visual elements) over the consideration that Elektra
working for the Kingpin occurred at a different time. (I usually
refrain using the visual medium argument as it has too often been used
to ignore the text but there is no text here contradicting the image).
"There you go, I hope people keep enjoying this discussion."
Peu à peu cette hypothèse a gagné des soutiens, mais pas suffisamment.
"Discussion started before the mini-series was completed.
The obvious problem was a black-clad Spider-Man (1984-88) during the era Elektra was employed by the Kingpin (1981-82).
"Col Fury and Clive Reston argued to dismiss the black costume as an art error and to place it among DD 174-181.
"Jason Doty argued that it was the black costume and Elektra as shown.
Leocomix proposed two theories: It's another martial artist assassin impersonating Elektra (Typhoid Mary) or it's Erynye, the dark Elektra from Fall From Grace (DD 319-325).
"With the publication of issue three and its humane Elektra, my theories became less plausible.
"StrayLamb rallied to the Fury/Reston proposal.
"But Jason answered back with a fierce defense, proposing to move the
Epilogue from DD 190 further into the future, arguing that Kingpin knew
of the Hand's attempt to resurrect Elektra, etc.
"Abandoning my own theories, I reassessed the two remaining competing theories. I found that issue 3 also undermined the DD 174-181 hypothesis. And that even issue 2 undermined it since Elektra was overtly betraying Kingpin.
"I rallied to Jason's theory and steelmanned (strenghtened) it. I also
pointed at the inherent weaknesses of the DD 174-81 hypothesis. At that
point Fury/Reston/StrayLamb had argued for dismissing the black costume
and Jason/Leocomix for a mid-80s placement. The ratio was 3/2.
"Then Midnighter rallied to our theory, which equaled the odds.
"Then StrayLamb stated he was now on the fence.
"I then explained that writer Gerry Duggan probably believed Elektra:
Assassin took place after DD 190 based on its publication dates (Aug
86-Mar 87) and that it was thus not his intention to place his
mini-series in 1981-82 as other elements pointed to the mid and late eighties.
"The black costume was made in PPTSSM 99 (Feb 1985) and worn regularly from ASM 280 to 300 (Sep 1986 - May 1988) after the red and blue was destroyed in an explosion.
"In his current Iron Man series, he's
revisiting Iron Man's Silver Centurion (1986-1988) period with a fight
vs. Emma Frost but this will likely not change the odds.
"So we stand at 3.5 for the later 80s placement and 2.5 for the 1981-82 placement."
